Housing rights activist Lorraine Lam joins host Sheldomar Elliott to discuss the growing housing crisis and its effects on our most made-vulnerable neighbours. Reflecting on her decade as an outreach worker and case manager with folks who are precariously housed and unhoused in Toronto, Lorraine describes her personal journey into this work and her experiences changing hearts and minds when it comes to houselessness. Throughout the conversation, Lorraine and Sheldomar make links between housing precarity, poverty and food insecurity, painting a clear picture of how all three are the result of failed systems, not people. Appreciating how easy it can be to feel overwhelmed when it comes to making a dent in the social inequities all around us, Lorraine leaves listeners with some tangible ways we can take action in our own backyards to ensure we build a city where everyone has a place to call home.
Transcript:
Lorraine Lam (00:00:00) – Smaller towns are seeing a lot more people who are living in encampments because, again, the cost of living and housing across the country is so problematic. And I would actually say like that is such a huge driving factor of why homelessness is on the rise. You know, when you call it, when we talk about like the cause of homelessness, I think, you know, instead of constantly like asking questions of what the individual person could have done differently, I think we need to spend more time talking about why is it that we have turned housing into commodity, where developers can profit off of.
Renee D’Souza (00:00:35) – You’re listening to Dignity and Joy, a podcast from Foodshare. On the pod, we confront the systems of oppression that impact who has access to food and the land it’s grown on, and who doesn’t. Achieving something better will take hard work from all of us, and can only be done if we listen closely to the people who are already leading change in the way we think about food. Food shares Sheldomar Elliott delves into the connections between food and justice with folks who have their fingers on the pulse and their hands in the soil.
Renee D’Souza (00:01:08) – Together, they dream in color and consider what it would take to build a just and hopeful city. A city where everyone can feed themselves, their loved ones, and their community with dignity and with joy.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:01:23) – Hi, I’m Sheldomar Elliott, and welcome to this episode of Dignity and Joy, a podcast from Foodshare. Today our guest is Lorraine Lam. Lorraine is a Chinese Canadian settler immigrant who has been a crisis outreach worker and case manager in the downtown east of Toronto for over ten years, supporting people who are unhoused and precariously housed. She is currently the drop in coordinator at Cummer Avenue United Church. Her work focuses on housing and homelessness systems, navigation, advocacy, harm reduction and trauma informed approaches to collaboration, survival, and building a more equitable and just reality for all. She organizes with Shelter housing, Justice Network and was a contributor to Displacement City and has done a number of podcasts and media conversations on spacing, TVO’s Agenda, Toronto Star’s This Matters and more recently, CTV’s The Social. She loves naps, carbs, and her very extroverted puppy, Miso.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:02:18) – Welcome, Lorraine.
Lorraine Lam (00:02:19) – Thank you so much for having me. I think Miso might try to make an appearance. so if you hear him in the background. I am so sorry.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:02:27) – No, Miso is more than welcome to the conversation. All good. Well, before we get into it, I do want to acknowledge, that I’m here in Toronto. Sacred land, that is, the traditional territories of the Wendat, Haudenosaunee, Anishinaabe, and the Mississaugas of the credit. And that this territory is covered by the dish with One Spoon Wampum, belt covenants and at Foodshare, we think it’s important to start any conversation on this land by recognizing the many nations of indigenous peoples who presently live on this land. Those who have spent time here, and the ancestors who’ve hunted and gathered on this land. I also want to acknowledge the many people of African descent who are not settlers, but whose ancestors
were forcibly displaced as part of the transatlantic slave trade, brought against their will, and made to work on these lands at Foodshare.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:03:09) – We believe that advancing indigenous sovereignty is deeply and inextricably linked to black liberation, and we remain committed to advancing both. Well, Lorraine, considering that this is your first time on the podcast, something we like to do at the beginning is sort of start off with some icebreakers as a way to get the conversation rolling. Is that something you’re up to doing?
Lorraine Lam (00:03:29) – Yeah. Sounds good.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:03:30) – All right, let’s do it. So I got a few here. And off the top, I’m thinking, what is your go to comfort food on gloomy spring ish days like today?
Lorraine Lam (00:03:40) – Oh, okay. It’s either going to be a bag of potato chips or a bowl of white rice with a little bit of Maggi sauce.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:03:49) – Okay. I got to ask, you know, I love it. And I swear, like, potato chips are also my comfort food. So I have to ask a bit more like, what was your go to in that moment?
Lorraine Lam (00:04:00) – Okay. I am either like a Lay’s barbecue flavor person or a Miss Vickie’s that sour cream. The blue bag.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:04:09) – Yes yes yes.
Lorraine Lam (00:04:10) – Yes. It’s definitely not into the the pickle or the vinegar. I’m not into that flavor. Okay.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:04:15) – Fair, fair. I think my go to is always spicy chips. So anything spicy I’m like okay, okay.
Lorraine Lam (00:04:21) – I can get behind that. Yeah.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:04:23) – what’s the last great TV show or movie that you feel like you watched?
Lorraine Lam (00:04:28) – I love Abbott Elementary. Oh. It is so good. and I’m very looking forward to the third season of being out on Disney+, but yeah, that has been a favorite so far.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:04:40) – Oh, it’s such a wholesome show. If you had your own late night talk show, who would be your first guest?
Lorraine Lam (00:04:47) – Oh wow.
Lorraine Lam (00:04:50) – Oh my gosh, that’s a good one. John Oliver, I think, Sheldomar Elliott (00:04:59) – I like a guest to guest.
Lorraine Lam (00:05:00) – Yeah, yeah, just kind of like, it’d be kind of meta to, like, interview someone who does the interview. So I think he would have some really fun insights.
Lorraine Lam (00:05:07) – And he seems like kind of grounded with, like, how the world works. So I’m into.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:05:10) – That I like it. if you could become an instant expert in something what would it be?
Lorraine Lam (00:05:20) – An instant expert in something, what would it be? I want to be that kind of person who can just, like, stand in front of a stove with a pan and just, like, put together a thing. You know, I think about, like, whenever I ask my mom, like, mom, how’d you make that? And she’d be like, oh, you just like, you know, just a little bit of this and that. And I’m like, well, how much? And she’s like, I don’t know, just eyeball it. I cannot eyeball it. So I want to be that person.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:05:45) – I feel that that is still something I’m trying to learn also with my mom. Yeah. Shout out to moms. I don’t know how they do it, but yeah. last one I got here, it’s a little weird, but stick with me.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:05:56) – Okay. Would you rather travel back in time to meet ancestors or to the future to meet descendants?
Lorraine Lam (00:06:03) – Oh… Ancestors. Yep. I had a really cool opportunity a couple of years ago, to be in China, where I was in, like, the little village where, my grandparents were born, and just kind of seeing how they grew up. I was like, oh, this is so fascinating. Because if this is the landscape in which you grew up in, I can totally appreciate some of the decisions that probably were made. So I’d love to go all the way back and, yeah, get to know some of those people that came before me. And I’m also just afraid of, our future and where we’re headed. So let’s just leave that. Yeah.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:06:42) – I’m with you. Yeah, probably with you. awesome. Yeah. Thank you for answering all those questions. Yeah.
Lorraine Lam (00:06:48) – Fun questions.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:06:49) – Yeah. Well, you know, I feel like there’s so much that we can talk about, and I’m really excited to jump into some topics, but I think it makes sense for me and maybe listeners to understand a bit more about you and sort of like, how did you get into this work and like, your upbringing into, yeah.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:07:07) – What you’re doing today.
Lorraine Lam (00:07:09) – Yeah, I’m. It’s a funny question because I think like sometimes there’s people think like, oh yeah, she probably always wanted to get involved with and working with people who are unhoused or precariously housed, and that is absolutely untrue. I was definitely the kid graduating from high school that was like, I have no idea what I wanted to do. wanting to take a break from school, but my mom was like, no, if you take a break, you’re never going back. So just like, do something in university. So I actually went to school for music. and I was like, oh, I don’t know what I’ll do. Maybe something musical. Who knows? but when I was going to school downtown in Toronto, I was just really floored by how I would, like, get off the subway and, like, walk to class and, like, along my way to class. There were just, like, so many people who are, like, clearly unhoused or precariously housed on my way to class.
Lorraine Lam (00:08:04) – and I’ll never forget, like, in my first year, I had to, like, get a textbook for one of my music classes. So I went into, like, a music store on Bloor, to pick up a few textbooks. And I had to, like, step around somebody’s sleeping bag in order to get my books. And then that was just weird. And then it was just like a really strange feeling, really unsettling feeling to then like, grab my books that I just paid too much money for because textbooks, and then like, walk around this gentleman who is sleeping in the alcove and then just go back to my class, it was everything was just like the juxtaposition of all of it was so wrong to me. And I think growing up I was always also just like, really curious about why people ended up in the, you know, areas of life they were in growing up in a pretty conservative church setting that we were always taught, like, you know, love your neighbors.
Lorraine Lam (00:08:56) – But then I was always like, well, why are our neighbors in these kinds of life situations? Right? And so I think all of those things just kind of, collided together. And I, in my first year of university, I decided like, well, you know what? I’m just going to try to meet some
people that, you know, I, I want to help people and try to understand people’s narratives and stories and, Yeah. So I decided that I would try to help, at a meal program, just like across the street from campus. And, you know, we just established that I don’t really cook, so me helping in a meal program was completely unhelpful. And the lovely volunteer coordinator was just like, you know what? Why don’t you just go talk to people and get to know folks? And that’s honestly how it started. I met people, I showed up at the same time every week, sat in the same spot, met the same people. and very quickly, I realized that the things that I thought I knew about housing and homelessness and poverty, I actually had no idea.
Lorraine Lam (00:09:59) – yeah. And so that’s kind of how I entered the space in this work.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:10:03) – Yeah. Wow. That’s that honestly resonates with me a lot. being a, I guess, alumni of Toronto Metropolitan University, I had similar experiences, going to school on
campus and having to walk around or over people. and the fact that it was just like a normal thing also really irked me. Yeah. I’ll say that some of that even informs my decision to, like, get into food security work. And I started with that on campus, similarly to you, but eventually broadened out and was like, wow, like, this is not just a campus problem. Like, this is like people in Toronto. Yeah. so I guess if we can elaborate a bit on that, like after spending time with folks and getting to hear stories and now doing the outreach work that you are doing, like perhaps we can discuss that. What are some of those root causes of homeless, of Houselessness? Sorry, and perhaps some misconceptions around that.
Lorraine Lam (00:10:59) – I mean, I think there’s so many misconceptions, but I think the big one that, you know, I definitely grew up hearing and I hear a lot today, too, is, you know, like that, that rhetoric like, oh, those people should just get a job, right? and I think like that, really, that statement in itself just captures so much in terms of, what I think people assume about homelessness and what actually is happening. I think, like we live in this reality that seems to just think that if everybody just works harder and tries harder, then they’ll just make it, you know? Right. And sure, every now and then we hear like a feel good story about somebody who, like, grew up rough and then like, you know, landed a great opportunity and ta da. Now they’re doing great and giving back to the community. And that’s great. But that is definitely not the majority of what’s happening. And I think like, you know, when we talk about root causes of homelessness, might hope is that we can ask better questions with curiosity to just kind of understand why.
Lorraine Lam (00:12:04) – And for me, like the longer that I spend in the community with people, some of the common themes that I hear around why people are unhoused, truthfully, is all a lot of it is like rooted in our system. Right? You know, there’s the conversation about how social assistance rates are not livable. minimum wage is not livable. what is defined as affordable housing is not affordable. then you have all of these isms that, potential landlords. Maybe like subconsciously hold and don’t realize where like they’re less likely probably to rent a place out to somebody who’s black as opposed to someone who’s not. Right. So things rooted in racism and sexism and classism. I think those are all things that contribute to why people end up in house. And of course, there’s a lot of like, life realities that are just out of our control. you know, I often there’s this card game that I used to play when I was a kid. It was called, like, president, you know, like the winner of the game, like, all the cards are dealt randomly.
Lorraine Lam (00:13:14) – Right? And then you play the round based on whatever random cards you get, and then the winner, you know, in the next round gets to keep the two best cards. And give their two like worst cards to the person who lost, and the person who lost gives their two best cards to the person who won. So now they have a really stacked hand. So unfair, so unfair. And I think, like when we talk about it in the context of the card game, I think people are like, oh yeah, like we can resonate with that. But that’s exactly what happens in life, right? Like we’re just dealt a bunch of random cards. Like, I didn’t get to choose what color skin I was born into, what family I was born into, what country, what city, and I just had to work with the cards that I got. And I think, truthfully, some of the root causes around homelessness is rooted in some of those random cards that people are dealt, and people are doing the best that they can to survive.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:14:05) – Absolutely. Wow. I think that’s a great analogy to use to understand that. and I also used to play president and I was also pretty good at president, but yeah, I’ve been yeah. In those moments you’re like, this is so unfair because like, how are those folks who were dealt those worst hands expected to get better or when the next round or whatnot?
Lorraine Lam (00:14:25) – Totally.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:14:26) – And like it really. I think the issue with Houselessness in Toronto and I want to bring up some examples soon, but it’s very much interconnected with the issues that we we work through with food insecurity. and I think folks sometimes forget that because
these conversations are often had separately. Yeah. but instead of understanding, like when people struggle to afford housing, they’re often prioritizing rents over buying food and gets to food insecurity, etc.. and I guess I’ve also heard you talk a bit about, like, visible and invisible. Houselessness. Is that right?
Lorraine Lam (00:15:02) – Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:15:04) – Yeah. Can you maybe share a bit about the difference there?
Lorraine Lam (00:15:07) – So visible homelessness is, you know, kind of like what it sounds like, right.
Lorraine Lam (00:15:11) – Like people that you see who are obviously unhoused. So these might be people who are, you know, sleeping on the sidewalk on the grates or like people living in encampments or people riding transit overnight. Those will be visible homelessness, invisible homelessness are the people who have no housing of their own. So even like the way that like, I think it’s like Homelessness Hub or Fred Victor. Like how homelessness is defined is basically like, a situation where a person or a family or community does not have stable, safe and permanent housing or the prospective means to acquire it. So that’s like the Canadian definition of homelessness. And so if you think about that, that means that anybody who is couchsurfing for instance, they might not be sleeping outside and you might not see them, but they don’t actually have a lease in their name. Right. That would be a form of invisible homelessness. I also talk a lot about people who are incarcerated. There are people who are incarcerated who actually, you know, have no address of their own.
Lorraine Lam (00:16:17) – But while they’re inside the system, they’re not thought of as being homeless. Right. So that’s another example of invisible homelessness, I would say. and, you know, a thing to flag about invisible homelessness is, you know, for instance, Toronto’s Streets to Homes program, they don’t work with people who are not sleeping on the street. So people who might be crashing at a friend’s, you know, they don’t have access to these services. Right? and so it’s a really vulnerable group of people, often families as well, who have no access to their own stable, housing or they know that they can’t acquire it. And so I think, the conversation around invisible homelessness definitely is one that is, not addressed enough, but it’s a really big problem.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:17:04) – and like, I think even using the language, it was like invisible. It almost makes it feel like it’s, I don’t want to say not real, but like, damn, you’re making me think about a lot of the people that I know in my own life who have couchsurfing for a long time and like people, my family in particular.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:17:21) – and that’s just like a means of surviving day to day, but without stable housing and makes things really difficult to like, have that stability and that security, of course. Yeah. That’s, Yeah, it’s making me just reflect on my own, on people I know. And I guess, yeah.
Lorraine Lam (00:17:38) – I think a lot too, about like, people with children. Right. And so I think that’s something. So the family shelter system right now is beyond full. I was speaking with a colleague who work specifically in the refugee sector, and I believe the wait for a family shelter right now is about 250 days.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:17:57) – Oh my gosh.
Lorraine Lam (00:17:58) – And so if you think about that, in the context of somebody, a family with children, So I really appreciate, actually, that you talked about the interconnectedness of housing and food security and all that stuff. So if you have a family with a few kids, you know, and they’re facing eviction or they have been evicted because that’s a big thing happening with
rent evictions right now, they’ve got kids in school, probably, right.
Lorraine Lam (00:18:23) – And so they’re not going to be moving into an encampment. Of course not. Because also, if you saw a family with children living in a tent, most likely child welfare services would be called. And that’s a whole another situation, right? And it’s like taking kids from their family that’s going to be more trauma. And how does that destabilize families? But then you think about the kids who are, you know, in school and are like not living in a place where it is stable or they have access to you like food security or housing security. If there’s like five kids, like sharing one bedroom, all this stuff, that stuff affects how a kid does in school. Yeah. And so then when we talk about the importance of child development and how important education is, if children are not able to have access to a quality of life that enables them to pursue education, well, then we can kind of like play the tape forward. And that’s not it. You know, it’s it’s a difficult reality and a lot of kids end up not doing so well under those circumstances.
Lorraine Lam (00:19:19) – Right. And so I think that’s a piece of invisible homelessness. I don’t think we talk about in terms of making the connections between like education and children and child welfare and all of that stuff, but it’s it’s more and more becoming a reality for sure.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:19:31) – Absolutely. And it just makes me like this whole like, fast forward thing. Like I imagine that’s how a lot of these cycles are replicated and like, especially intergenerational, It’s wild. And yeah, it’s making me think about a lot of things. But what I’m really realizing is that a lot of this is happening in Toronto, the city that we’re both in right now. I guess as someone who is on the ground who’s been doing this work for a long time, like what? I
guess. And I feel like this is kind of obvious, but like, what are the state of things in the city? And more particularly like, are you seeing what are you seeing from local government in terms of trying to address this issue, if at all.
Lorraine Lam (00:20:12) – The state of things in the city… I mean, to put it very simply, is that things are – things are getting worse, worse, in that the number of people that are becoming unhoused is increasing. And I guess I want to make it a point here to, to name that, like. All people, no matter what status they are in the city, deserve access to shelter and housing. There is a really awful rhetoric happening right now that kind of says like, well, you know, we can’t even take care of the people in our own city. How dare we bring in new immigrants and refugees? And I think that rhetoric is so problematic and so racist and xenophobic.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:20:50) – Talk about it.
Lorraine Lam (00:20:51) – Because, like, the rhetoric makes it sound like the problem is that we don’t have enough resources. But the problem is actually we have a we have a hoarding of resources problem. You know, the fact that we have landlords with multiple properties, that is the problem. so the original point was, yeah, so things in the city are getting worse because we are just seeing increasing numbers of people who are becoming unhoused.
Lorraine Lam (00:21:17) – you know, the news talks a lot about how expensive groceries are and how food bank lineups are like tripling, quadrupling. I think there was a study by, was it? Second Harvest or one of the food groups that was talking about? Oh, yes. That’s right. That was like, oh, about a million people in this country are about to like, use food banks for the first
time this year. So obviously, like things are getting worse. And I think we’re also seeing that people who are not usually even plugged in to these conversations are noticing it as well. And I think we started to see that during the pandemic, especially when they, you know, people who traditionally were able to kind of just like turn a turn an eye on all these things and kind of go about their lives are starting to pay attention to it because I think it’s starting to feel closer to home. For instance, you know, people who are living in condo buildings around encampments, they’re now like, more upset about encampments.
Lorraine Lam (00:22:13) – You know, whereas before, like, I think there was a lot more homelessness maybe in the ravine. So it was just like more out of sight. Right. But I think now it’s just like really in all of our faces because things are so bad. And in terms of like, you know, what governments are doing, what governments are doing feels like a constant question in terms of like, what are you doing? And we’re seeing municipal governments across the country name that, like homelessness, is in a dire state of emergency. However, these proclamations feel really empty when there’s no actual action being backed. So a really good example is, for instance, when the pandemic sort of arrived at our doorstep in 2020, there was like this national recognition that like, oh my gosh, this is a public health emergency. And so all these things were mobilized, including CERB, right? There was like immediate action taken. We’re seeing with housing, we’re like, okay, so yes, housing is an emergency, but yet, like everything is just going business as usual and nothing is changing.
Lorraine Lam (00:23:13) – Right. And that is really frustrating. And so the conversation around like what governments are doing, it often feels like it’s not enough. you know, we see sort of like municipal governments reaching out to the province and feds and they’re like, we need money to build things. We in Ontario, there is no plan. We currently have a provincial government that is not interested in affordable housing. Ford is instead wanting to spend $46 million on police helicopters. you know, and there’s no money put into like, housing. Right. And so there’s that question. And then you see the federal government with no, like national strategy whatsoever. so there are significant gaps in all three levels. And then the bigger gap is that there’s no coordination between all three levels. So it constantly is this deflection back and forth. And so what’s happening instead now is now you have all these people who are most affected by the housing crisis. And then you have other people that are, you know, getting into these strange conspiracy theories and like turning on each other instead of actually putting all of this energy towards the government to, like, mobilize.
Lorraine Lam (00:24:21) – Yeah.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:24:22) – That oh, that is getting me going because there’s, there’s so much there. First off, I wish I could curse and I’m not going to because we’re on a podcast, but Ford is really doing us dirty in terms of housing stuff. And I know there’s been a scandal in the past year with where this money is going and his friends and all this stuff so that it’s, it’s it’s wild. And I
think you also bring up the really important fact of like regular ordinary people or blaming like folks and asylum seekers and refugees and people immigrating into the country for this issue. But it is a matter of reallocating resources and yeah, not hoarding them. it’s also making me think about like, I, I understand, like houselessness and being, like, living on the streets is sort of a really severe situation of homelessness. I’m thinking about young people and people who are a little bit, maybe younger than me or older than me, who are also like, where do we live? And I yeah, I know there’s statistics.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:25:23) – I haven’t been able to come across them in terms of like people who are just leaving Toronto and are trying to go to like suburbs or maybe just leaving the province altogether. so it’s really multifaceted in terms of like how this problem is manifesting and how it’s impacting people’s livelihoods.
Lorraine Lam (00:25:40) – Totally. There was a podcast, I think it was Canada Lands Backbench podcast. And they were talking about this like mass exit of people, from big cities like Toronto. So I think they were even saying like there was a lawyer. I mean, lawyers are, you know, supposed to make decent money. And they’re like, no, we can’t afford to live in this city. Right. And so it’s it’s something that’s going to affect everybody in the country. And I think, you know, traditionally, I think not sure relationships like in the past, I think a lot of folks used to think of, you know, the conversation around homelessness and such as being, oh, it’s just like the big cities in, in the country.
Lorraine Lam (00:26:19) – but we’re seeing like, encampments and stuff across now, like, you know, even like our neighbors in Peterborough, Port Hope, like Colburn, these, like, smaller towns are seeing, a lot more people who are living in encampments because, again, the cost of
living in housing across the country is so problematic. And I would actually say like that is such a huge driving factor of why, homelessness is on the rise. You know, when you when we talk about like, the cause of homelessness, I think, you know, instead of constantly like asking questions of what the individual person could have done differently, I think we need to spend more time talking about why is it that we have turned housing into commodity, where developers can profit off of? I think that’s actually such a big part of conversation that we don’t talk about enough. Specifically, in Toronto, for instance, there is, a property developer named King Set, for instance, and they’ve been purchasing land across. Across the city of Parkdale, East End, and they’re developing it.
Lorraine Lam (00:27:16) – And also the cause of a lot of evictions. But why are they constantly raking in more money at the expense of people who are about to end up on the street, right? we don’t talk about that. Like why, who’s making these deals? Why are developers continuing to profit? Why are we even allowing that? Where is the, you know, where is the government sort of interventions around the financialization of housing? There’s none of that happening. And that definitely needs to be addressed.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:27:43) – and it’s like, I feel like we could see this in so many different places, but it’s always trying to put the blame on, like the symptoms rather than address, like the core of the problem. And a lot of it links back to poverty unfortunately, which is a systematic issue. yeah. It makes me think about so much. it also makes me think about like the city budget and like there’s supposed to be money there, but it doesn’t seem like it’s being used well. And I know that some folks had hope with the new mayor that was elected a few months ago, but things don’t seem to be going, so great, unfortunately.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:28:22) – I guess when thinking about the macro sort of picture of all this, do you know of or are aware of any sort of global models that address homelessness in a way that, like, maybe the city could better, look at or consider when also trying to tackle this situation?
Lorraine Lam (00:28:40) – Yeah, I think I think about that a lot, but I want to backtrack a little bit to like a current mayor. I think, like, she definitely has a responsibility for sure. And city budget and numbers and stuff like that. But I think it’s important to recognize, too, that she inherited an absolute dumpster fire right from our previous administration. So, like, if folks aren’t following, like if we look at the numbers that and the amount that’s being spent on the FIFA World Cup. Okay. right. Like, I think it came up in a recent city Council meeting where, I think originally it was just supposed to be a few million, but all of a sudden it’s actually showing that it’s going to be like 300 something million and the costs going up.
Lorraine Lam (00:29:20) – And I think it was Councilor Matlow who kind of said, like, who okayed this, who the previous administration and city staff. Right. Like who approved this. And I think like, I’ll admit that I’m definitely still trying to figure out how like municipal politics work. And I think, like, yes, the mayor has some power, but I actually think we need to ask a lot of questions about the city’s staffing team, who approves these things because the mayor doesn’t single handedly decide, like, I’m going to, you know, do this thing. Of course, there’s a team of people
that like, veto it or vote on it and stuff like that. That’s kind of how ideally democracy works. and so while Chow, I think has been disappointing in some areas, I want to name that, like she inherited a complete mess. and then I think we’re not holding all people to account that we need to. That said, she’s the mayor, so I think she should be responsible for a lot of these things.
Lorraine Lam (00:30:18) – But I do think we have a larger conversation to have around, like, who’s making these decisions at City Hall? And so, you know, other places that are doing things that work. Like, I know a lot of folks look to like Scandinavian countries, right? You know, those countries have problems as well. But I do think, you know, there is a conversation there around like housing and how people have access to it. I think like no place has got it perfect. But I do think a lot about, Scandinavian countries in terms of the questions that they’re having around access to social programs. I also personally lived in Singapore for a few years, and the Singapore housing model is really interesting to me because they have like a public housing model there. Essentially, like most, housing in Singapore is like they call them HDB. So like the Singapore government basically like is responsible for it. Okay. HDB is called like Housing and Development Board. And so it’s like a really big part of how housing works there.
Lorraine Lam (00:31:13) – And a lot of folks in Singapore who live in HDB, like my family also does. And like if you want to buy a property, there’s like a whole lottery system that happens. so I think about that a lot. Again, like Singapore has a lot of other issues, right? Like, okay, you can’t chew gum on the street. So like, you know, there’s conversations about like how much freedom people have there. but homelessness is not a thing there. Right? So they’re doing they figured something out there. And I think a big piece of that is really about the government’s sense of responsibility around housing and how it actually benefits the entire country if people have access to housing.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:31:46) – Absolutely. At first off. Yeah. I think you made a great distinction there in terms of understanding how municipality or municipal politics works. yeah. And there’s a lot of work that needs to be done there and accountability to be held. I won’t list any names, but I’ve definitely heard that, working in the city is a very slow moving sort of pace.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:32:14) – and it’s funny, it’s like all, like, nonprofits and all these folks doing on the groundwork. We always feel the sense of urgency. But like when it comes out to the city, it’s like nonexistent. So. It’s funny that that’s the thing. And I also just took a look at that budget for the FIFA World Cup. they’re expecting it to be about $300 million. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh that is ridiculous.
Lorraine Lam (00:32:39) – It’s absolutely like if you just kind of think about like so here’s the thing. I think often too, that like even if people were just heartless and had no compassion on people who are poor or people who are unhoused, truthfully, it’s actually just like financially a silly decision to not invest in shelters and housing, right? More importantly, housing. Right? Because like, it costs like $6,000, I think for one person to be in a shelter hotel, like one person, right, $6,000 is like that could be rent subsidies for so many people. And so you talk about like 300 million for the World Cup.
Lorraine Lam (00:33:14) – Like, I just think about how much money that could be, instead of if we actually focus that on like, like things that are actually going to build the city so that people had access to basic needs. It’s wild.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:33:24) – It’s so wild. Like, what about guaranteed basic income or like social assistance or like supporting livable wage policies? Like, I feel like all of those things could better address this issue, but instead soccer. Yeah. Yeah.
Lorraine Lam (00:33:39) – And I had somebody who had the audacity to say to me the other day, like, well, poor people want soccer too. And I was like, listen, why is that? That does not justify a $300 million on the FIFA World Cup like that is just absolutely ludicrous. And, you know, I don’t think we can talk about this without talking about the Cup budget either.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:33:59) – Right? Like just about to bring it in.
Lorraine Lam (00:34:01) – Yeah. Like policing is not going to solve mental health realities and like, unhoused, communities like access to things, right? We know that cops also have nowhere to bring people to.
Lorraine Lam (00:34:12) – And so why are we giving them more money when they’re literally not part of the solution? It’s just really, really silly. But we have this, like, societally ingrained idea that like, cops will fix all the things and it starts so young, right? It starts in Paw Patrol.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:34:26) – Yeah, exactly.
Lorraine Lam (00:34:28) – And like, I think we have some serious work to do in terms of encouraging our people in our circles. So like unlearn some of these things and again like ask better questions. If we have a pot of money at this city and we’ve identified the priorities around housing and food security, and we know the things that are going to be addressing housing and food insecurity is housing building housing. And, you know, like making, you know, sure, people have access to food. How do the cops fit into this and why in the world are we giving them more money when they’re not going to solve any of us? It’s just it’s so bizarre to me.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:35:01) – It’s wild. I, I am not going to put myself on blast too much, but my dad’s a police officer.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:35:09) – so these conversations come up very often, and it’s really hard to have them understand the other side, because he’s so deeply ingrained in being a police officer, and that’s a whole thing in itself. Yeah.
Lorraine Lam (00:35:21) – Wow.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:35:22) – Yeah, it’s.
Lorraine Lam (00:35:23) – It’s we can talk after.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:35:26) – We’ll decompress around that. But yeah. Yeah, it makes me think about, like, just having conversations with people who may not be thinking about these things. And. Right. Like, you’ve already brought up a few examples, but like the sort of ignorance or sort of, I guess Nimbyism or like, not in my backyard kind of thought that you might have to encounter often. And I guess I’m thinking like, how how do you manage those kind of conversations? And like, how do you try to remind people to be compassionate, and just be human without, you know, without the sort of self-righteous idea, but, like, genuinely like thinking about each other and making sure that we care about each other. Yeah. Like, how do you manage that in your work?
Lorraine Lam (00:36:10) – I ask myself that every day.
Lorraine Lam (00:36:15) – Because sometimes I’m honestly just so flabbergasted at the things that people say. I think one of the big things that like, on a good day, when I’m able to kind of unpack some of these conversations with people, there’s a lot of these narratives that are rooted in fear, right? In terms of. You know, especially around, like, fear of the unknown. And I say that as in, like, okay, so people don’t like unhoused people in their neighborhoods. And sometimes when you kind of unpack that, that’s usually because they’re like, well, I don’t know if they’re gonna assault me or like, what do I do if they’re, you know, yelling or whatever. So there’s a fear of like, not knowing how to respond, which I think, like, I’m like, we could practically address that by giving, like giving you tools. Right? Like de-escalation conversations. you know, there’s a fear around, oh, my gosh, there’s like, needle syringes, which I just want to name.
Lorraine Lam (00:37:13) – Like, needles are not just falling out of the sky. Right? Like there has not actually been a reported case of anybody in the public being pricked by a needle. But this fear is so real. And also, if this fear is about, stepping on an uncapped needle, well, the way that we can combat that is actually to put out more needle disposal bins around the city, like it’s a very clear solution we can have. Right. And so I think a lot of these and then there’s a more abstract fear in terms of I think there are people that are just like really, afraid of sort of like, oh my gosh, like, this is happening. Things are getting so bad. What this does mean for me, and I think we’re all sort of wired to have this idea of like, self-preservation and wanting to be okay, but yet the responses that we make out of our fear is kind of what dictates our humanity, I think. Right. and so I try to remind myself that even the people that are upset about encampments and stuff, there’s often a level of fear under there.
Lorraine Lam (00:38:14) – There’s always this desire to protect property over people, which I really struggle to understand. Like, yeah, people are more upset about their stolen Amazon packages and the fact that, like, people are living unhoused down the street from them. And I truthfully don’t know how to, like, reconcile that. but I think the other piece is I really want to try to find common ground. So, yes, people in a certain neighborhood don’t want encampments for whatever reasons they have. But I personally don’t want people to have to live in encampments either. So that is like a common ground we can be on, to say, yeah. Okay, so we’re on the same
page here. Now, let’s actually ask better questions in terms of why people are in encampments. And sometimes that’s where the conversation starts to go sideways. Because again, back to the start of the conversation, I think people have these preconceived notions of like, wow, these people just have to try harder or or whatever it is. but I think for me personally, like, you know, I operate in my work with people who are vulnerable.
Lorraine Lam (00:39:12) – Like I try really hard to, to come from like an anti oppressive framework, a trauma informed approach. And like this means applying that as well to the same people that I disagree with, recognizing that they do carry trauma and, you know, have been hurt in their lives and have experienced levels of oppression. And so I think my hope in those conversations is not so much to try to convince people, because I think convincing as a goal is never going to work. But I try really hard to converse with a with a posture of curiosity, to try to understand where people are coming from. And then honestly, I just try to like, give people like, okay, well, that’s what you’re thinking. But here is what I’ve observed and this is what I’m seeing. And you can take with that as you please. I don’t know if that’s working, truthfully. but I feel like that is what I’m able to do with my capacity at this time.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:40:11) – Absolutely. I think it’s just so important to be able to meet people where they’re at.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:40:15) – Really. and I see this in my life, too. And whether it’s family, friends, like I, I also try my best not to convince people, but like, try to offer them, like, the facts and the stats in a way that isn’t over overbearing, overwhelming. and just let them understand. But I think you also bring up something earlier too, like it’s there’s a bigger thing or issue that exists that we don’t have to talk too much about, but like, like this attachment to materialism and like all of this stuff rather than like the wellness of, like people who live around us or in our community. and that’s of course, a symptom of capitalism, but it’s, it’s yeah, it’s a scary thing to, like, have to fight against and like to in real time have that conversation about, like, where’s your priority? yeah, it could be tough and it could be a little, that’s what I’m looking for. Yeah. It’s just it’s it’s it’s it’s hard.
Lorraine Lam (00:41:17) – It’s hard to… you know, you talk about that thing about, like, property, right? If you think about policing the big narrative around the city budget this time around was like, oh, carjackings are on the rise, so we need more money to protect cars. you know, like, it’s just kind of like, okay. I know that. Yeah, of course, I guess. I mean, when I got my bike stolen, I was so upset, because it was like, oh, my gosh, this is my bike. It’s like a part of me. I spent money on this, right? But it was also like, okay, like, it happens. You live in the city, shit happens. Right? And I just I’m just. So I think I’m often just kind of like, how do we get to a place where we’re more concerned about maintaining the stuff we have than ensuring that people are okay? And I truthfully, I think a lot about is it possible to teach empathy, like, is empathy something that can be taught? What do we need to do to move people closer to the radar of like understanding issues and seeing people with compassion? And there’s, there’s that lawyer, Bryan Stevenson.
Lorraine Lam (00:42:19) – He, like, wrote that book, Just Mercy, based on his, like, his experiences as a lawyer in the States, sort of defending people who are wrongfully convicted,
facing the death penalty. and I think about this a lot. He said this thing where he was like, you can’t solve a social problem from a distance. You have to have proximity to the problem if you want to make a dent. Right. And I think that’s so true. Right. Because I think a lot of the times when we talk about food insecurity or housing or, you know, racial, racial profiling, all these
things they get talked about as these abstract ideas. But when you talk to the people who are closest to it, you often hear like, these are like my life stories. And so we can’t just kind of talk about these things and debate them in our, like, cushy living rooms and like, politician offices when we’re not actually close to the, the realities and to understand. And so I think a lot about
like, can we teach empathy and how do we get people to be willing to engage in proximity from a place of trying to understand, I have no answers.
Lorraine Lam (00:43:23) – So when you figure that out, let me know.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:43:25) – I was hoping you had an answer because I also don’t have any, nothing. That’s. But that’s something I think a lot about also, and it’s something I also try to balance because I. Yeah, it’s hard to even talk about these things. And I said it earlier, but like this, maybe it’s like a me thing, but I, I’m always trying to not come across as, like as self righteous or being like, well, I know the thing. Like, we need to do this thing. Yeah. but it’s so important. And I guess I’m curious now, and I, I think I’ve seen this somewhere, like your website or socials, but you mentioned, like, you are interested in faith, justice and like, faith is a big part of you and your work. and I, I don’t want to assume, but I’m guessing that might also be somewhere where your empathy and your compassion may stem from. I would love to hear more about.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:44:20) – What does that mean to you?
Lorraine Lam (00:44:22) – Yeah. I don’t know if that’s where it stems from, because if I’m going to be super honest, there are some people connected to the Christian faith space that is some of the most judgmental people and non compassionate people that I know.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:44:37) – You’re literally reading my mind.
Lorraine Lam (00:44:40) – So I was like, yeah. So like, you know, sometimes I, I’m very aware that when I’m like, you know, talking about my own wrestling with my faith journey, it’s like a little embarrassing because I’m like, man, like some of my people have caused the most harm, not just like in history, but like currently. Right, right. and so I don’t really know what to make of that. And I don’t know what to do about that. Right. Because I think that it’s something that I, hold really closely. So I guess I often think I mean my. Without getting into, like, weird theology stuff here, but I’m also in for that.
Lorraine Lam (00:45:24) – I mean there’s like a school of theology in the Christian faith that believes that, like, it’s like that believes in like humanity is like total depravity that just believes that people are bad. Right? And I just I don’t subscribe to that because I actually think so. Again, in my Christian faith, we believe that, people are what we call like image bearers, like they are a reflection of divine. And so if that’s the case, I don’t think we’re all inherently bad. Like, I actually
think we’re born, like, you know, if you people love children, right? Because we recognize that children have a purity to them. They’re just kind of like, they’re not messed up by the world just yet, you know? Yeah. And that’s and that’s what I, I think that’s what I deeply believe. And so I
think like somewhere along the way, the longer of life we’ve lived, we’ve been hurt, we’ve been harmed or trying to protect ourselves. And that’s when we kind of create all of these like, you know, ideas about people, stereotypes about people.
Lorraine Lam (00:46:24) – But I kind of believe that if you sift through our mess, I actually think people are good and I think people are drawn to what’s good. I think that’s why people are drawn to the feel good stories that we sometimes do in media. Right? So I think for me, like my faith informs my work and that I believe that people are not the worst things that they’ve done, and that I think that’s what keeps me going and believing that actually, like a better reality is possible. But I also think that, like a lot of this stuff, like, you know, when we talk about social justice work, I’m a really big believer that the work starts with ourselves, that we have to figure out our own mess and sort out our own baggage and stuff before we try to get out there and, you know, do nice things for other people because I think our own baggage will affect the way we interact with people and how we see people. Definitely. but yeah, like, I think my faith journey is one that’s complicated and I’m not really sure what to do with it, but I think it’s such a big part of why I continue to do what I do.
Lorraine Lam (00:47:24) – You know, I haven’t really been connected to a church institution in a long time because I’ve really struggled with, you know, how I have often felt like the church does says one thing in their services, but then in real life I see something completely, totally different. And I think that’s something I’m trying to wrestle through. But I think my connection to spirituality and the divine and the God that I believe in, is what sort of keeps me rooted and like what I’m fighting for.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:47:53) – That was really well said and thank you for sharing. I know it’s not always easy talking about those things. but I think throughout the whole conversation I’ve been resonating with a lot. And I resonate with that too. And like, you know, I grew up Christian. My grandmother is a pastor. and it’s great. And I love her. but when dinner comes around, she starts saying certain things. I’m like, okay, this is why I have my own troubles with religion. Yeah. so similarly, I’m on my own sort of spiritual path and trying to make things make sense.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:48:25) – but those things definitely keep me grounded and help to inform, like how I show up in the world and, like, how can I navigate the system. And for me, I feel like, I also don’t want to go into theology, but I don’t know, I’m here for it, yeah.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:48:41) – you know, like, I, I, I don’t know, but I sense that, like, there is an interconnectedness with all of life, and it’s hard to like, you know, prioritize, like the immaterial things that, like, just dissipate over time rather than, like, connections and relations and, yeah, just like seeing life the way it shows up and recognizing that, like, we can support, we can help
in different ways. Yeah. but that proximity piece that you were talking about earlier, that was that’s something that I’m going to be sitting with. I think that’s a really interesting one.
Lorraine Lam (00:49:17) – Yeah. You know, I, I’m not going to preach, but, there is something that I think there’s two things about my faith connection that I think a lot about.
Lorraine Lam (00:49:24) – The first being that like, you know, I think a lot about what the conversation around colonization means in this, too, right? Because, my family is from Hong Kong, so we’re Chinese people. and, like, the only reason that, like, my family came to faith in the Christian spirituality is because they were like Western people that came to like, you know, do missionary work. So, you know, I think I think a lot, too, about what that means in terms of like my Chinese existence in a colonized place, but yet we’re also colonizers at the same time. Hong Kong is like a weird thing, you know, what does that mean for my faith? Right? And the other piece of my faith, true to that, I think a lot about in this work is that the Christian faith, you know, is rooted in stories about the being of Jesus. And when you read Scripture, what’s really. Striking to me, actually, is that he, according to the stories that we’ve read, he spent a lot of time like walking around and being with people.
Lorraine Lam (00:50:27) – So sure, there’s like random stories here and there of him, like feeding 5000, but it’s not like he went everywhere and just like launched fish and bread at everyone. And that was it. And he moved on. Right? It what is really striking to me is that a lot of the, the things we read about in scriptures show proximity, like he talked with people and ate with people. when people asked him questions, he would like, respond and dialogue and that and, you know, and there’s in the stories where, you know, they show his like, miracles that he performs or whatever. It’s always the stories, always kind of talk about somebody saying like, help, help, I need your help. And then his response is, okay, like, what do you need? He doesn’t just assume what people need, which I think is, you know, something that I think in charity mindset, we just assume that we know what poor people need and we just do it for them.
Lorraine Lam (00:51:19) – No. Proximity actually encourages us to have conversations with people and actually ask people what they need and spend time with them before trying to do the things for people. And I think those are really facets of my faith that I think a lot about in my work as well.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:51:32) – Yeah, that is so important. Like trying to understand, like speaking to people and really hearing what they need rather than just assuming, and I feel like we see a lot of that, just like the bandaid solutions that we, we see a lot of the time, whether that’s like a food bank, like, of course folks need to access food. Yeah, but it’s still going back to what we talked about earlier. Like it’s it’s not addressing the core root cause of the problem. Right. and speaking about help and I’m, you know, I’m just thinking about this conversation like, what are some maybe tangible ways that folks can take action or support, like initiatives that are going on in the city.
Lorraine Lam (00:52:12) – Good question. important one, I think food banks are important, but, you know, I always tell folks like, you know, for every donation you give to a food bank, pair that with some kind of a political action, because ultimately, like, we don’t want to just make more food banks, we want to actually eradicate the need for food banks.
Lorraine Lam (00:52:33) – So like. The reason we have food banks is because people can’t afford to live, because minimum wage is not livable, because social assistance is terrible. So like push for policy changes. So I think that’s a really big one for me. Like I don’t want to. You know, I don’t want people to think that, like, donations don’t matter because they do. But I appreciate you naming that they really are a band aid solution. So like get involved politically in changing systems. I would say, as you do donations. I think other ways to get involved. I always also encourage people to start local. So, you know, there are some people who live outside of downtown and sometimes they’re like, oh, you know, poverty is a downtown Toronto thing. But no, there’s a lot of, you know, hidden poverty in Scarborough, Markham, York region. And so I always encourage folks to like, do a quick search on like two on one or something, just to kind of see what existing, organizations are out there in your own neighborhood, and find ways to partner locally, like don’t just come downtown once a week and like, you know, donate to the food banks down here, like, get involved in your local spaces.
Lorraine Lam (00:53:36) – I think that’s a really big one. and I think, you know, connected to, you know, our conversation about, like, dialoguing with people. I think, like a really big part of the work needs to happen in our own circles. and I think we forget that, like, I think sometimes when we think about getting involved in and trying to make changes, we think a lot about, like, okay, I’m gonna partner with this organization, I’m going to do this thing out there, I’m going to go on a march, I’m going to do those things. And those are really good things. But like the changes really happen in our circles, in conversations for me, like. I need people in my life to gather their people and have conversations with their people in Markham. There are people in the conservative church space, for instance. I need those folks to talk to those people because I’m not going to reach them. I don’t know them. I have no relationship with them. Right.
Lorraine Lam (00:54:29) – But like my people, if you are friends with them, you do. So I always say, like, I think a really important way to get involved, as I gather your people, and have these hard conversations, you know, share articles about what you’re learning, encourage people to
come alongside you. If you’re doing a food bank run, great. Bring them along and then have these conversations because I think like, that’s kind of some of the biggest gaps that I see in terms of, you know, just the the lack of accurate information out there. so that’s a big one. And so then I also encourage people to find, resources to like, stay in touch and, and learn things. so if you’re really interested in food insecurity, like look for organizations that center food insecurity to like, follow and like learn about the work, proximity, find ways to be involved. Like closely. I think those are some ways that I think of, in terms of how to practically get involved. And I also realize that none of those sound very glamorous or exciting, which is what I think people want to feel.
Lorraine Lam (00:55:29) – I think that’s why like, I think that’s why like the Christmas, you know, the Christmas shoebox thing that I’m talking about,
Sheldomar Elliott (00:55:36) – Like a Christmas drive kind of.
Lorraine Lam (00:55:38) – Christmas drives. Yeah. And there’s an organization called, like, Samaritan’s Purse. They pack shoeboxes up with, like, toys and, like, send them overseas. and
it’s a great visual because you get a lot of people who, like, pack all these boxes. And at the end of the event, you get these, like, hundreds of shoeboxes packed up and it’s like, look, look at how great we did. I feel so great. And I think sometimes when people think about getting involved, we center our feelings of wanting to feel good as opposed to like centering, actually, what we’re doing this for. And that’s the difference between like charity work and justice work. Right. And so all of the things I suggested are really boring. There’s no good selfies you can take out of it, but it’s actually really important transformational work.
Lorraine Lam (00:56:20) – And I think it’s that’s that’s the stuff that we’re really missing.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:56:24) – Absolutely. Thank you so much for making that distinction. I think that’s a really rich and important thing to say. and yeah, leave the selfies at home. Yeah.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:56:34) – Yeah, we don’t need those.
Lorraine Lam (00:56:36) – Especially not if you’re like taking a selfie, if you’re dropping off food in an encampment like no that’s.
Lorraine Lam (00:56:42) – That’s not we don’t need we don’t need that.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:56:44) – We really don’t. Oh.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:56:45) – Well, I think this has been such a wonderful conversation. Lorraine, thank you so much for being here today. it was truly enlightening conversation. I feel like we were able to make so many connections between different issues that are all working at the same time are all happening at the same time, because they’re not necessarily working. and I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experiences with us.
Lorraine Lam (00:57:07) – Of course. I was so glad to be here. This is so good.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:57:10) – Wonderful. Well, if folks want to follow and support your work, where can they find you?
Lorraine Lam (00:57:14) – I am pretty easy to find on the internet, for better or for worse.
Lorraine Lam (00:57:20) – You can find me on Instagram. I am Lorraine Lam Chops that is me also on Twitter. And I’m just Lorraine Lam out there and on the internet. Yeah, I’m pretty easy to find so go nuts.
Sheldomar Elliott (00:57:37) – Will do. Well, that’s it for this episode, and dignity enjoys a podcast from Foodshare Toronto, where food justice organization advocating for the right to food and working to challenge the systemic barriers that keep people from accessing the food that they need to thrive. You can learn more about our work at Foodshare.net. If you have
feedback on the pod, we’d love to hear from you! You can send us an email at info at foodshare. Net or on our social media. We’re at foodshare TO on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and on Instagram. Dignity enjoys producing collaboration with lead podcasting with sound engineering and editing by Mar Tezak, the production team at Food Chairs Renée D’Souza and Andrea Thompson. Special thanks to Amanda Cupido and thank you so much for listening.